FOAVC: What 's the Real Intent of FOAVC ?

It's been almost 2 years since joining this FOAVC group with hopes of moving toward bringing this United States to what's it's hyped by the media, "a Democratic nation". Nothing has happened in to bring a Convention to reality. In my original statement made to this website I stated the problem with the Judiciary Branch as being of 1st order. The fact that the courts haven't supported the Constitution in 744 past attempts to form a Convention says it right there. Since the media, Courts & the Congress are bought off; the next logical step for a TRUE FOAVC group to bring a Convention to reality is to propose on this site the top 3 new C. Amendments of choice by this group. Then send an invitation to all the State Legislatures to participate in what the Constitution says can be done to take control of our lives outside of the Federalists (D.C.). A request to all the Legislatures should be that a notice be sent to all their constituents that they are participating in a Article Five Convention as provided in the Constitution, to amend the Constitution, to check the government as to remain sovereign(self governing).
The Constitution doesn't go into detail on how to structure or run this Convention. This needs to be decided just as what Amendments are being proposed. I feel that the initial group of 50(states) x 2(most senior & most junior reps.) or 100 reps.are invited to complete this task. All this could be done cheaply & timely over the Internet, then secondary confirmation by a phone call or registered letters from the reps. to help valid there Internet confirmation. The actual Convention would later could happen with live representatives. My intial comments below about this site almost 2 years ago.
I truly hope this organization leads to an actual result of change, as I've been a registered Libertarian for well over a decade & have seen all groups & individuals as only bell ringers. Those who are now in control, "The Backroom Boys", as I call them, seem to only allow some dialogue to make it appear we have a democracy, when we really are only "thermometers of discontent". Because we need a quiet Revolution (as Jefferson implied) we need to choose the most important battles first. I haven't seen this organization show what are the priorities of order for a peaceful change. Myself, we need to shore up the Constitution by an Amendment of "Judicial Reform". Another or within the same, of "Incumbent Accountability". The foundation must be Right before we move on. The Third Branch is the key to me.

Stephen Skinner,

It is true, progress made is nil. However, I think it would be possible to instigate an Article 5 Convention by using your idea to send an invitation to all the state's legislatures.

What is needed is a common goal all 50 state legislatures can wrap their efforts around. That common goal could be the repeal of the 27th amendment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

The 27th amendment was the last to be ratified. It also has the longest lifespan in it's ratification. The end result of it's ratification is the automatic pay raise of Senators and Representatives each year, unless those same Senators and Representatives vote to suspend the pay raise. The people would not be effected by it's repeal.

I find it interesting the law addresses a "conflict of interest" by replacing a vote on a pay raise with an automatic pay raise unless a vote is cast to suspend the pay raise. I would rather see the Senators and Representatives submit a referendum to the people every 2 years and ask the people if Congress is deserving a pay raise.

If all fifty states would submit a petition to repeal only the 27th amendment, and to submit these petitions within a 2 year time frame, all dissenting opinions concerning the process would be void. Congress would be obligated to call an Article 5 convention or submit the amendment to the states themselves.

Either way, progress and precedent would be made. Actually, precedent was set with the 21st amendment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

(with the requisite two-thirds having voted in favor in each house; 63 to 21 in the Senate and 289 to 121 in the House), they chose the other ratification method established by Article V, that being via state conventions. To date, the Twenty-first is the only amendment ratified by conventions held in the several states, rather than being ratified by the state legislatures.

The Twenty-first Amendment (Amendment XXI) to the United States Constitution repealed the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which mandated nationwide Prohibition. It was ratified on December 5, 1933.

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Stephen Skinner,

Thank you for your suggestion.

However, there is a much more simple plan, and we are working hard on it.

All that is required (and much, much easier than trying to get many state legislators involved to repeal the 27th amendment) is for at least ONE state legislator to file a law suit similar to "Bill Walker vs Members of Congress". They can even use this 781 page BRIEF. And the outcome, provided the Supreme Court doesn't side with Congress to continue the blatant violation of Article V, would be much more far reaching than simply repealing the 27th amendment, because Congress would then finally be forced to call an Article V Convention, where many much-needed, common-sense, no-brainer amendments will be considered (e.g. term-limits, balanced budget, campaign finance, automatic annual raises for Congress, taxation, etc., etc., etc.).

The federal court dismissed "Bill Walker vs Members of Congress", stating that Bill Walker did not have standing with regard to Article V, because he is not a member of a state legislature. However, the Federal/Supreme Court can't use that excuse IF the person filing the new law suit is a state legislator.

Now, you may be wondering, "Why has no state legislator done that?"
Well, it's because many state legislators have plans to run for federal congress some day, and they aren't likely to sue the federal Congress, since that would be political suicide.

However, some day, there will be at least ONE state legislator who doesn't care about political suicide, and who cares more about the nation and the Constitution, and not about getting elected (or re-elected). Then, the Supreme Court will finally have to deal with Congress' blatant violation of Article V of the Constitution.

Also, there is also something else the voters can do, which is a very simple, common-sense, no-brainer thing right under the voters' very own noses:

Stop Repeat Offenders !
Don't Re-Elect Them !
If in doubt, vote 'em out !

Simply stop repeatedly rewarding FOR-SALE, incompetent, and corrupt incumbent politicians with 90% re-election rates. After all, Congress is FOR-SALE, as evidenced by 99.7% of all 200 million eligible voters who are vastly out-spent by a very tiny, tiny 0.3% of the wealthiest voters who make a whopping whopping 83% (or more) of all federal campaign donations of $200 or more.

Hence, the problem is NOT only the politicians, since the majority of voters repeatedly reward incumbent politicians with 90% re-election rates.

The problem is NOT only the politicians.
The problem is ALSO the majority of the electorate (the majority of 200 million eligible voters), who repeatedly reward failure and these abuses, and a severely wasteful and bloated government, and repeatedly reward FOR-SALE, irresponsible, incompetent, and corrupt incumbent politicians with 90% re-election rates!

But again, the majority voters are culpable ALSO, because:

the majority of voters repeatedly reward incumbent politicians in the federal Congress with 90% re-election rates.

45% of voters don't even bother to vote at all !

90% of elections are won by the candidate (usually the incumbent) who spends the most money.

99.7% of all 200 million eligible voters are vastly out-spent by a very tiny 0.3% (or less) of the wealthiest voters, who make a whopping 83% (or more) of all federal campaign donations of $200 or more.

the majority of voters do not even know who their federal representatives and senators are from their state, much less their voting records.

too many voters are single issue voters and have not a clue about dozens of other more important issues and abuses that are bankrupting the nation and destroying our childrens' futures.

too many voters prefer to wallow in the circular, divisive, mindless, distracting partisan-warfare, rather than understand and/or admit that there is really no big difference between Democrat and Republican incumbent politicians, because the only major difference between the IN-PARTY and OUT-PARTY are the two equally destructive extremes that each go to:

Extreme #1: One extreme wants regressive taxation, unfettered capitalism, little (if any) government regulations, and freedom to explore and wallow in every manifestation of unchecked greed.
Extreme #2: The other extreme wants a nanny-state with citizens increasingly dependent on the government; with massive cradle-to-grave government programs (which are usually severely mismanaged) that nurture a sense of entitlement and dependency on government; wants to grow government ever larger (despite the already current nightmare proportions); rewards failure and laziness; disguises envy and jealousy as demands for equality; and perpetuates the myth that we can somehow all live at the expense of everyone else.
BOTH of those extremes are pathetic, destructive, and rooted in excessive, short-term selfishness, instead of enlightened, fair, long-term self-interest;

too many voters are too easily bribed with their own tax dollars, and too many lying politicians are all too eager to make promises they don't intend to keep.

too many voters are totally unaware of the magnitude of the total federal debt, and the massive unfunded liabilities.

too many voters are totally unaware of how the dishonest, usurious, inflationary monetary system gradually extracts wealth from the majority of citizens, while benefiting the wealthy (whose wealth is not mostly in cash, but in land, real estate, gold, commodities, and other real assets). But the monetary system is also doomed, as is any pyramid scheme.

too many voters are totally unaware that the tax system is actually REGRESSIVE (i.e. Warren Buffet paid 17.7% in total federal taxes on $46 Million in income, while his secretary paid 30% in total federal taxes on $60K annual income. This is because capital gains and interest are not subject to 15.3% taxes for capital gains and interest. Also, capital gains are only taxed at 5%-to-15%. This is how the wealthy pay a much lower percentage of their income to federal taxes. That is a regressive tax system, and Warren Buffet agrees. And now, the federal government is thinking about starting a National Sales tax too (in addition to the current income tax system).

too many voters are totally unaware that they are being lied to about several economic statistics (e.g. inflation, GDP, unemployment, money-supply, taxation, etc.).

too many voters are unaware of numerous constitutional violations (including Article V), and over 700 Article V applications from ALL 50 states (far more than the pre-requisite 34 required for Congress to call an Article V Convention).

too many voters want to believe that THEIR politicians is great, and the problem is ALL the other politicians; unfortunately, that doesn't make any sense with dismal 11%-to-29% approval ratings for Congress; too many voters simply refuse to admit they voted foolishly.

Therefore, what we have today is demonstrated in the picture below.

Too many of use are crappin' in our own nest. The only caveat is that some of us (i.e. the voters) are gettin' crapped on more than others (i.e. the incumbent politicians). Be the voters not only allow it, but reward the politicians with 90% re-election rates.

But regardless of whose gettin' crapped on most, there's far too many of us crappin' in their own nest, and the majority of us will suffer the inevitable consequences. That is, regardless, the majority of voters are gonna get our education, one way or another.

At any rate, we have the government we elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, . . . , at least, until repeatedly rewarding failure and corruption, and repeatedly rewarding irresponsible, incompetent, FOR-SALE, and corrupt incumbent politicians finally becomes too painful.

Perhaps when enough Americans are jobless, bankrupt, homeless, and hungry, then perhaps enough of them will stop repeatedly rewarding corrupt, incompetent, and FOR-SALE incumbent politicians with perpetual re-election?

Until then, the voters have what they deserve.
The only real victims are the children of current and future generations who will suffer the consequences of the majority of voters' own short-sighted greed, selfishness, massive debt of nightmare proportions, etc.

So, some day, if enough voters really want reforms and justice, there's one very simple initial first step right under their very own noses.

Also, merely voting out incumbents is not a silver bullet either, but it's a start.
Also, there is a precedent for this happening in the past, because in years 1929, 1931, and 1933, the majority of unhappy and angry voters ousted Congress persons by the hundreds.

During a portion of the Great Depression (39% (206 of 531) of the incumbent politicians were ousted in year 1933) . . .

StartYear	EndYear	Congress #	Re-Election Rate	NOTES (voters obviously grew increasingly unhappy between 1927 and 1935):

1927	1929	70 th	83.6%	87 voted out
1929	1931	71 st	79.7%	108 voted out
1931	1933	72 nd	76.8%	123 voted out
1933	1935	73 rd	61.2%	206 voted out (59 Democrats, 147 Republicans)

In year 1933, unhappy voters ousted 206 Congress persons (i.e 38.8%=206/531) from Congress (or 44.1% =206/[435 + (96/3)], since only one-third of the Senate is up for re-election every 6 years, considering there were only 96 Senators in year 1933, and the same number of Representatives as today (i.e. 435), for a total of 531 Congress persons in year 1933).

Enough voters must be more vigilant to hold their elected representatives accountable in every election (2 year terms in the House, 6 year terms in the Senate, and 4 year terms for the executive branch); not only when the voters have allowed things to deteriorate so long and so severely that significant pain and misery becomes unavoidable.

Regardless, a potential built-in self-correction mechanism exists: pain and misery

So, there's still hope that real change and reforms may come about some day.
The electorate merely needs to choose how they're going to get their Education:

(a) the smart way, or
(b) the hard and painful way (again)?

It's our choice, as long as we have the right to vote and obtain a sufficiently accurate vote-count.

Also, I would argue that much has been accomplished by FOAVC.
There are a LOT more people that are now aware of Article V than 2 years ago.
For one thing, no where else on the internet can you find photo-copies of over 700 Article V applications from all 50 states. This was a huge and costly task, and it was important to research, organize, and post on this web-site, since Congress has been trying to hide them in numerous, huge, old, dusty paper volumes in the National Archives And Records Administration in Washington, D.C.

P.S. Stephen, if you don't mind us asking, aside from your suggestion above (which we appreciate), what have you contributed to help bring about an Article V Convention?

For anyone looking for ideas, here's a list of things that would help tremendously.

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There I go again, sticking my foot in my mouth.

nil: nothing

When it comes to the efforts of the FOAVC and it's related websites, nil was the first thing to go. Even my invitation to participate with FOAVC cancels nil. A poor choice of words on my part.

http://www.foavc.org/file.php/1/Amendments

The collection of photo-copies of over 700 Article V applications provides proof that the efforts of FOAVC is productive.

How To Help! http://foavc.org/file.php/1/Articles/HowToHelp.htm
Don't re-elect anyone that has been there!
They must realize they are the problem.

Don't re-elect state legislators either!
http://foavc.org/file.php/1/Articles/FAQ.htm#Q9.1
Elect state legislators that will support the constitution and Repeal the 17th amendment!

Just keep in mind The Double-Edged Sword. An Article V convention will become what it's opponents say it is. They will claim the end of our constitution and a reason to write a new one. They will do their best to make it so, because it will be in their best interest. Ignoring the Constitution will obliterate the control our constitution provides.

I think we should start believing in the U.S. Constitution as it was written before we open Pandora's box with an Article V convention.

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I think we should start believing in the U.S. Constitution as it was written before we open Pandora's box with an Article V convention.

http://www.repeal17th.com/index.html
If the 17th is repealed:
Through the Senate, the States will form an important check on Federal power and restore balance between the three Estates (the People, the States and the Federation).

Q: Congress, particularly the Senate, will never allow a Convention on this matter to take place. The Federal government would lose so much power!

A: True on both counts. That is why the Founders left a tool in Article 5 of the Constitution, which specifies two ways a Convention can be called.

The first is by aye votes by two-thirds of both Houses of Congress.

The second method is by passage by two-thirds of the States' legislatures.

We advocate the second approach, because neither Congress, nor the President nor the Supreme Court can stop it.

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Michael,

That's OK.
Many members and people want to see more progress (including me).
We're doing the best we can with the resources we have.
However, support for Article V is growing.
There was hardly any mention of Article V a few years ago.
Now Article V has been mentioned in many major newspapers, blogs, and even in the main-stream media.

At any rate, the voters have the government that they elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect, . . . , at least, until repeatedly rewarding failure, and repeatedly rewarding FOR-SALE, incompetent, and corrupt incumbent politicians with 90% re-election rates finally becomes too painful.

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I'd like to see more progress. Such as, picking fights with the federal power structure.

Should the States insist our federal government consider the repeal of the 27th amendment? In the midst of statements by state representatives and the recent decision to turn down this year's pay raise, a repeal of the 27th amendment would be a flag we could well afford to rally behind.

Many have championed the Transparency issue.

"We're doing the best we can with the resources we have."

Does FOAVC document it's revenues and expendatures in the name of transparency? I am looking forward to an area on the FOAVC.org website that will document the revenues and expendatures of FOAVC that reflects it's "transparency" expectations. A long row to hoe to be sure, but a small price to pay for it's lesson in transparency.

A few years ago I had no idea what Article V of the U.S. Constitution was! I was focused on what the amendments to the U.S. Constitution during the 20th century have done to the fabric of this country. It is obvious the Article V alternative is hidden for a reason.

A petition from each state to repeal the 27th amendment will demonstrate how Article V of the U.S. Constitution can be used. A repeal of the 27th amendment would not effect anyone but the senators and representatives mentioned in it.

Article V was put in place to modify the U.S. Constitution. The federal government took it's chance during the 20th century and failed. "We the People" must take our turn in the 21st century. Let's take baby steps backwards and start by repealing the 27th amendment.

We must get back to the U.S. constitution that benefits the U.S. Citizen instead of one that benefits this out-of-control government.

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Michael, That's a fair question.
FOAVC has received about $200 from members.
Steve Ladd created this painting for us.
We appreciate all the help we have received.

The co-Founders have funded many thousands of dollars for everything else (for acquiring copies of 700+ Article V applications; law suits; web-site fees; programming/software; press release fees; filming costs; equipment costs; etc.).

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The Article V convention has been convoked by Judge Brennan. (Do I understand correctly that he's a founder of this community?) This is the closest we'll ever get to a real Constitutional Convention, because the government is already in violation of the Declaration of Independence, which is also important organic law.

What better way to get a constitutional convention than to start one?

Government has left; they are out to lunch, a very long lunch. Who is going to do the job required when a government has ceased to function?

Brennan's convention has a real chance to succeed with various potential ramification as maybe realized within a year or two, and with enough numbers behind the activity, the Convention's decision are likely to have the force of law provided enough people are behind it.

I was invited to Brennan's convention, and joined without any hesitation. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. To get a Constitutional Convention, start one. Numbers have been increasing quickly, and I anticipate the call to order in just a month or two, when the minimum number of state delegates are registered.

As the convention gets underway it will be an activity worthy of news in a matter of just a few months or a year. As the amendments start to take shape, and the legislatures realize they are being by-passed, they'll will fill with consternation, fear, and foreboding.

The web site is here: https://www.convusa.com/

The faster we move this project forward, the sooner we'll have a result that will make a dent.

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There are several important things that need to be done to call a convention:

- identify the reforms you want, which must be "constitutional" rather than something that can be enacted by legislation. They must also be important enough to justify this type of effort. I suggest that enacting regional government is probably one such - indeed, it would also handle the judicial concerns to some extent since most district and appealate judges would be appointed by their regional VP - and you could mandate that each region have a "seat" on the court as well. Regional balanced budgets are also easier to enact than a federal balanced budget and having most spending happen at the regional level with regionally determined taxes does most of what you want in time of peace to limit government. You could also make all federal criminal law - with a very few exceptions - regional. Probably the only federal law enforcement should be customs, immigration, border security and the secret service (for counterfeiting and protection of the President).

- identify how you want the delegates selected and put it in the call

- identify on a congressional district party committee level which House members and state assembly members you want to support the call - OR - which of these can be taken over by people who believe in an article V convention - OR - who can be replaced by starting a new party supporting a convention and the reforms identified. Don't wait for trends, you need committed votes or voters. You need a majority of assembly seats in 2/3rds of the states (at least) - and I would suggest 3/4s of the states is a worthier goal.

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Please allow me to add that the online effort should aggregate people at not only the state level, but the congressional district level. We need a majority of the congressional (and/or assembly) districts in 2/3rds (ideally 3/4s) of the states covered AND attract a centrist coalition (including economically progressive pro-life Catholics who voted for Obama) with as many precinct level workers as the dominant party in those districts.

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